Excerpts from the Clint Curtis interview:
congressional hearing speaker & Clint Curtis 00:00:42:12 00:01:03:04 Mr. Curtis, would you please state your full name for the record? [My] Name is Clinton Eugene Curtis. And where do you reside? Tallahassee, Florida. And what is your profession? I’m a computer programmer. …Mr. Curtis, are there programs that can be used to secretly fix elections?
congressional hearing speaker & Clint Curtis 00:00:42:12 00:01:03:04 Mr. Curtis, would you please state your full name for the record? {My] Name is Clinton Eugene Curtis. And where do you reside? Tallahassee, Florida. And what is your profession? I’m a computer programmer. …I’m a computer programmer. Mr. Curtis, are there programs that can be used to secretly fix elections?
Yes. How do you know that’s to be the case? Because in October of 2000, I wrote a prototype for…Congressman Tom Feeney at the company I worked for in Florida that did just that. And when you say you did just that, it would rig an election. It would flip the vote 51-49 if whoever you wanted… and whichever race you wanted to win.
congressional hearing speaker & Clint Curtis 00:01:03:11 00:01:26:23 Yes. How do you know that’s to be the case? Because in October of 2000, I wrote a prototype for…Congressman Tom Feeney at the company I worked for in Florida that did just that. And when you say you did just that, it would rig an election. It would flip the vote 51-49 if whoever you wanted… and whichever race you wanted to win.
And with that program that you designed for something that elections officials … never see.. Again, would you answer that question once again? Clint Curtis-They would never see it. Speaker-So how would… a secret program that, fixes the election? How could it be detected.
congressional hearing speaker & Clint Curtis 00:01:26:25 00:01:50:26 And with that program that you designed for something that elections officials … never see.. Again, would you answer that question once again? Clint Curtis-They would never see it. Speaker-So how would… a secret program that, fixes the election? How could it be detected.
You would have to view it either in the source code, or you have to have a receipt and then count the hard paper against the actual photo. Other than that, you won’t see it
congressional hearing speaker & Clint Curtis 00:01:50:28 00:02:15:12 You would have to view it either in the source code, or you have to have a receipt and then count the hard paper against the actual photo. Other than that, you won’t see it. All right, Mr. Curtis. If you had been asked you or others with your professional expertise have been asked to design a protected program to that would protect the Ohio elections from against against such software.
Speaker-Could you design a program or a procedure or a protocol that would have protected Ohio against this kind of rigging? Clint Curtis-No. You have to look at the source code. You have to get probably programmers from both or all parties to look at the source code and determine if there’s anything in there that shouldn’t be there.
congressional hearing speaker & Clint Curtis 00:02:15:14 00:02:41:12 To fix the election. Could you have done so? If we’ve been asked to make a program that could fix the election, I’m sure anybody can do it. No. Could you design a program or a procedure or a protocol that would have protected Ohio against this kind of rigging? No. You have to look at the source code. You have to get probably programmers from both or all parties to look at the source code and determine if there’s anything in there that shouldn’t be there.
Given the availability of such vote rigging software and the testimony that has been given under oath of substantial statistical anomalies and gross differences between exit polling data and the actual tabulated results, do you have an opinion whether or not Ohio election, the Ohio election, presidential election was hacked?
congressional hearing speaker & Clint Curtis 00:03:05:11 00:03:39:22 Correct? …Given the availability of such vote rigging software and the testimony that has been given under oath of substantial statistical anomalies and gross differences between exit polling data and the actual tabulated results, do you have an opinion whether or not Ohio election, the Ohio election, presidential election was hacked?
Yes, I would say it was. … if you have… polling data that is significantly off from the vote,…
congressional hearing speaker & Clint Curtis 00:03:39:24 00:04:02:15 Yes, I would say it was. … if you have… polling data that is significantly off from the vote,…
Opportunity to hear…that the mainstream media is not allowing access…that I and Joe Vichot…the chairman of the Lehigh County Republican Committee. He’s vitally interested in ways to assure that the upcoming election is is a clean one.
Attorney Bob Rust 00:04:52:16 00:05:24:11 that we’re going to be discussing this morning to give the people the opportunity to hear that, that the mainstream media is not allowing access to these folks. So it’s within that context this morning that I and Joe Vichot, who is, with us, he is the chairman of the Lehigh County Republican Committee. He’s vitally interested in ways to assure that the upcoming election is is a clean one.
His name is Clyde Curtis.
Attorney Bob Rust 00:05:24:13 00:05:56:15 ,,,His name is Clyde Curtis….
I was a programmer … in 2000. Since then, I’m an attorney…but basically that I’d been for 20 plus years trying to tell people that they should not be using these electronic machines because they simply can’t trust them and they’re not allowed to look at them.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:06:03:06 00:06:31:03 …I was a programmer … in 2000. Since then, I’m an attorney…but basically that I’d been for 20 plus years trying to tell people that they should not be using these electronic machines because they simply can’t trust them and they’re not allowed to look at them.
So I wrote a prototype for the electronic voting machines back in 2000.. there was a algorithm inserted that would allow the person who…to flip it,…
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:06:31:05 00:07:06:27 ….So I wrote a prototype for the electronic voting machines back in 2000.. there was a algorithm inserted that would allow the person who…to flip it,…
You can do the same thing with any computer, any tabulator… it’s gonna basically elect whoever you want to elect and flip the logs and flip the ballots and flip everything behind it.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:07:07:00 00:07:23:07 You can do the same thing with any computer, any tabulator… it’s gonna basically elect whoever you want to elect and flip the logs and flip the ballots and flip everything behind it.
what happens is that if it’s a computer program, the programmer controls it. I am the god of this universe. So unless you can get something away from that, that can check it, you have no hope of beating the programmer because he won’t know what you’re looking for…
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:07:29:01 00:07:51:25…what happens is that if it’s a computer program, the programmer controls it. I am the god of this universe. So unless you can get something away from that, that can check it, you have no hope of beating the programmer because he won’t know what you’re looking for. So can you.
When people say, oh, you can look at the logs there are really no logs on computers. There’s only what the programmer puts in for a log. You can write those logs. Nothing is automatic. If I don’t write it, it didn’t exist. If I do write it and I want to change it, I change it. If I make a ballot image and I want a different ballot image, I’m the one making the ballot image.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:07:51:28 00:08:16:04 When people say, oh, you can look at the logs there are really no logs on computers. There’s only what the programmer puts in for a log. You can write those logs. Nothing is automatic. If I don’t write it, it didn’t exist. If I do write it and I want to change it, I change it. If I make a ballot image and I want a different ballot image, I’m the one making the ballot image.
You just have to get the vote away from the computer.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:08:33:02 00:08:38:19 …You just have to get the vote away from the computer.
You’re an attorney, but …I understand that you’ve got quite a, knowledge experience in the whole technology area.
Attorney Bob Rust 00:08:38:21 00:08:59:10…You’re an attorney, but …I understand that you’ve got quite a, knowledge experience in the whole technology area.
Programmer. I work for NASA, D.O.T., all of the big companies, Exxon Mobil…… Anything that you can think of, I can make it happen within the programing sphere. …I was basically a prototype.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:09:01:17 00:09:22:23 Programmer. I work for NASA, D.O.T., all of the big companies, Exxon Mobil Reiter ?word?, basically, if there was something that you could dream, I could make it happen. Wasn’t a problem, right? Anything that you can think of, I can make it happen within the programing sphere. So that’s essentially what it was. I was basically a prototype.
wrote the electronic document management system for the entire state of Florida….this was cutting edge stuff, you know, 20 years ago. …
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:09:43:28 00:10:11:05 DOT …wrote the electronic document management system for the entire state of Florida….this was cutting edge stuff, you know, 20 years ago. …
…I get ignored because I’m a Democrat. So now that I’m working with Republicans, it’s because that they’re interested in elections and suddenly the Democrats are saying, oh, everything’s great. But…from 2000 to 2020, we were the party….we need to fix this. And the Republicans… nah, everything’s fine.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:12:31:10 00:12:53:26 Suddenly they start looking at the problem…now things are good. …
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:12:53:29 00:13:12:06 …People were dropping ballots off…They go…an hour and a half to drive to drop these ballots off in a drop box…And they can’t check anything…
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:13:12:06 00:13:33:20 But I really don’t get criticized…They just ignore me because I took the polygraph. I’ve been saying the same thing for 20 years. Anyone who knows anything about computers knows you can make that thing whatever you want it to do. You have the code, you have a back door.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:13:33:23 00:13:39:25 … a hacking program…can make it do whatever you want it to do.
Attorney Bob Rust 00:13:39:27 00:14:10:02 … What’s the one thing or more that you want to make sure they take away from the session?
Attorney Bob Rust 00:14:10:02 00:14:14:27… what do we do about it?
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:14:14:29 00:14:40:09 Well, it is that you can’t use these computers to do your elections. You can’t let the elections be controlled by politicians or governments behind closed doors. Basically, you end up with the same system that Russia has. People get to vote in Russia. They just don’t get to see the count. And we’re in exactly the same place. They now give you the elaborate dog and pony show, but essentially you don’t get to see anything.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:14:40:11 00:15:06:26 And if you look too close, they chase you away. And now if you complain, they try and put you in jail. Or if you try and investigate anything. So it’s getting worse, not better. So my goal is to get rid of it. Back in 2004, other countries took notice of what we were saying and actually addressed it. Yeah, I don’t (Bob and Clint talk at same time clint ?words? [you have to get rid of the machines.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:14:40:11 00:15:06:26 And if you look too close, they chase you away. And now if you complain, they try and put you in jail. Or if you try and investigate anything. So it’s getting worse, not better. So my goal is to get rid of it. Back in 2004, other countries took notice of what we were saying and actually addressed it. Yeah, I don’t (Bob and Clint talk at same time clint ?words? [you have to get rid of the machines.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:15:44:27 00:15:47:13 Do you use hand ballots at all? Handwritten ballots.
Joe Vichot 00:15:47:13 00:15:50:25 We do. In Lehigh County, it’s all handwritten ballots.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:15:50:25 00:15:53:05 Yes, but then you stick it on a machine.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:16:01:13 00:16:16:24 It goes into the machine. And whoever is the programmer is does whatever he wants…Because you have no control over what…he does…It’s just a shell. It’s kind of like, do you ever go to those accuracy tests.
Joe Vichot 00:16:16:27 00:16:18:26 Right? Yes. We do.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:16:18:29 00:16:43:19 Do you know they are garbage…Joe-Probably clint- the programmers know what’s going on…
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:17:06:18 00:17:27:15 …we were never able to check what happened to that machine in Pennsylvania.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:17:27:18 00:17:37:25 Never. You can’t see the source code. You can’t see the ballots. You’re just out of luck. So you just have to trust them. Why?…
Attorney Bob Rust 00:17:37:28 00:17:44:22 So Joe …what would you ask…of Clint?
Joe Vichot 00:17:44:25 00:18:07:20 …we’re going to continue to deal with…this election code…like …L&A testing…
Joe Vichot 00:18:15:13 00:18:56:21 …and the way the law is written, we can only have one person in there, at a time. And it’s ridiculous because they have 158 machines and they have more than one person…checking those machines….
Joe Vichot 00:18:56:23 00:19:19:19…So that program at that time did exactly what you wanted it to do. But what we learned from Garland, Favorito…on the last podcast was… any program you can actually set it up based on date and time, to start, …even though we locked down the computer…machines.
Joe Vichot 00:19:19:21 00:19:41:10 once that L&A testing? …there’s really no guarantee that that there is not an another program in there that could…give us different results. And whether they and the election clerk was doing that, he could be completely unaware of any of that, too…it’s well above his pay grade. He’s just doing what he’s told to do.
Joe Vichot 00:19:41:12 00:20:03:10 …So when it comes down to the end of the day, is, there needs to be a hand count,…. I actually had an interview with the French consulate…like you just mentioned in France, there is no electronic machines.
Joe Vichot 00:20:03:10 00:20:25:28 It’s all done by hand… that’s no small country. It’s…bigger than Pennsylvania. And why can France do it by hand? But the state of Pennsylvania cannot….
Joe Vichot 00:20:25:28 00:20:45:13 So yeah, we’re in a very difficult spot…. I want to ask you about… it’s after the election, unfortunately. And that’s…when we do a 2% audit here,…in Lehigh County, it’s only 2000 votes.
Joe Vichot 00:20:45:15 00:21:14:10 And I’m fighting with them to get them to do it as a hand-count. So my question to you is the same as, Garland is in the law. It says it must either be manual, mechanical or electronic. And if it’s electronics, it has to be on a different, electronic machine. Now, according to the our secretary state, our machines require it… we’re using the DSR 200 and 450 two hundreds and the four 50s.
Joe Vichot 00:21:14:12 00:21:26:05 You have to do a manual audit. Okay. So my definition as my question to you is what do you consider a manual audit? What is that? What is the definition of a manual audit.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:21:26:07 00:21:50:08 The only manual audit you will catch a programmer with is if you count every ballot that it was set because otherwise we can play games. We will be able to anticipate what your random is because there is no real random in the world. Everything…pattern. And so we can anticipate especially 2%. 2% is easy. You know you give me 10% gets a little more difficult.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:21:50:11 00:22:06:21 But the problem with auditors, even when they catch something, they don’t catch anything. They had an audit that caught a race down in Georgia, where this lady ended up …she had no votes in her own precinct
Joe Vichot 00:22:06:24 00:22:07:08 Right
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:22:07:11 00:22:34:17 … She she voted for herself and…thought her husband voted for her …He at least didn’t deny it…we make a full audit where they count every ballot they found she actually won. … Did they check another race? No, they fix the race that they caught and said, oh we’ll get it next time.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:22:34:19 00:22:54:09 Just look the other way. Don’t look at the guy behind the curtain. We got it. Must be some sort error we’ll fix it. So literally they caught nothing….. And that happens every time. Every time you see an issue…It’s human error.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:22:54:09 00:23:00:29 It’s this error is better. But they never looked beyond that error. They don’t go, well, let’s check other….things
Joe Vichot 00:23:01:01 00:23:23:00 … I hope you agree with me that that means hand-count…because what I’m being told was…no, that just means you can manually feed it into another electronic machine. I have to say. Are you kidding me? It’s still electronic.
Joe Vichot 00:23:23:03 00:23:30:08 That’s right. It is still being counted by a program, not by another source. It could be a human source.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:23:30:10 00:23:52:09 We’re legal to hand count the ballots. You have to basically just re-feed it in and take the exact same thing that came up the last time. Waste of time… They’re trying to get rid of the ballots altogether and just count the ballot images, which is the image that is produced by the program that’s counting the ballots.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:23:52:11 00:24:21:01 if That’s off, you got a bad programmer because he should make that match regardless of whether it’s right or and the way the laws are set up, they are set up not to actually catch anything. They’re set up for finality. You know, it’s kind of like they’re trying to change the rules on, certifying elections. Now, certifying elections is all just sort of a performance rather than duty to actually inspect that, that.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:24:21:03 00:24:49:12 So I think January 6th…a real funny topic for Democrats. But, you know, they were pushing not to have pence certify the election right. But he thinks he had to. Well, then why have the performance if there is no oversight, why have the performance? And the problem with certifying is it now takes away everything you can do to investigate what happened.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:24:49:15 00:25:08:06 Because once a year…what’s done. And that is the big push to not certify because they had all these investigations going right. They got lawsuits out there. They were trying to get the source code, which even in a presidential race, they never got the source code, not once.
Attorney Bob Rust/clint 00:25:08:09 00:25:12:19 Say that again clint…clint-presidential race.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:25:12:22 00:25:24:24 They never were able to get the source code to these machines. And the few people tried to get it behind the scenes, like Tina Peters and some other people, they got charged with crimes.
Attorney Bob Rust 00:25:24:27 00:25:26:08 Goodness gracious.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:25:26:11 00:25:46:18 Trying to look and see if the machine was accurate. Now, honestly, they were a little over their heads. I think technically, because just getting the source code without actually blueprinting the machines doesn’t tell you anything, because a lot of times your code…can be anywhere. It can be on the hardware, it can mean the software, it can be in the firmware, it can be anywhere.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:25:46:18 00:25:57:28 So if you only have this program and you don’t have everything else that’s touching it, you really don’t have anything. ….
Attorney Bob Rust 00:25:57:29 00:26:21:21…but am I hearing you correctly,… that your solution to this is getting rid of the machines and going to Hand-Count and then what are you proposing?…Well, we saw the video. I mean, we know about your background and what you did, but speak a little bit further to that.
Attorney Bob Rust 00:26:21:21 00:26:24:03 What you told Congress.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:26:24:05 00:26:34:04 Well, I told Congress they couldn’t trust the machine. They would have to go through the source code. They’d have to go through everything to find it all out. I didn’t go too much in-depth with them because they’re congressmen, so they will not understand.
Attorney Bob Rust 00:26:34:06 00:26:35:01 Right?
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:26:35:03 00:26:52:01 They’re not programmers. They’re not computer scientists. They’re a guy who got elected…so they’re not going to understand….
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:26:56:06 00:27:20:29 Democrat. I think he was out of Michigan, Minnesota. Okay. Yeah. Had a heading in that direction….then a bunch of the lobbyists came from Microsoft and all the other companies. They gutted that …I mean, it was just gutted because they make money if the machines are there
Attorney Bob Rust 00:27:22:08 00:27:35:12 That’s that’s a pretty important point. So you’re basically saying attempts at reform are going to be significantly resisted by those folks that make money on it. It makes sense.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:27:35:14 00:27:57:22 But in other countries I didn’t have that problem. Like when I talked to France, I talked to Germany, I talked to Netherlands. They actually listen and go, okay, how do we stop that? In 2018, Netherlands called and they had caught the Russians coming in and they got in databases. And the Russians were particularly bad that time. They weren’t really good at it.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:27:57:25 00:28:16:12 By bad I mean doing it and getting away with it right? They weren’t getting away with it because the country is trying to hack every time. If you have anything out there worth hacking, right, and we do the same thing to them, I’m sure. But so they got to the Netherlands and, when they called it, was six months before their election.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:28:16:12 00:28:40:13 … they talked to me and said, how do we fix this? How do we keep these Russians out of the election? …So I said, take them….Cardboard box…put the tape on it…
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:28:40:15 00:29:01:03 And you throw it in the ocean…And they did it in six months they threw them out and count the whole thing by hand.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:29:01:03 00:29:27:21…we did it in Dallas and every county can hand-count…And we would have an accurate count up…
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:29:39:23 00:30:00:21…But this is not really what they’re doing in Texas…We showed that you could hand-count every race on camera…live streamed out to everybody. So everybody would know that the count was correct. ..
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:30:00:24 00:30:18:25 …And you could do it all in an hour, maybe two, and everything would be done. So you’re not up all night waiting for election results. …I was talking with the, the governor’s chief of staff. I think he was. … I said…how many people [do] we need to do that?
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:30:18:28 00:30:40:23 …the math is pretty easy. There’s another little video I sent you where we were in Montana showing this…you will go through 100 ballots on a race in two minutes… you just go out with every pair…and it’s walk right through them.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:30:40:25 00:31:07:29 How many people you need is easy to say… but in Germany, where they also count tons of votes, they actually have a system…and they’re not volunteers……we…tried to do one [hand count] in Nevada and we had 400 people sign up in a day.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:31:08:01 00:31:24:04 So people want to do it, but they will get bored. So they don’t do that every time. But in Germany,…you use the same system rules to get jurors, because nobody wants to be a juror either….and then you bring [them] in to do the election and they get out of the jury duty.
What do German election volunteers do – DW – 09_19_2017.pdf
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:31:24:04 00:31:44:10 So in Germany, they try and do the hand-count because they don’t want to sit on the jury…And the problem is not that big because…Pennsylvania’s big, but…France was bigger, essentially. That’s not the way you look at it.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:31:44:11 00:32:04:11 You look at it. How big is a precinct? Because that’s where you count. It’s so you don’t need 25 million people to count that precinct. You need 5 or 6, and you’re done. And it’s under camera. So they can’t cheat because everybody can watch it happen. So if you look at the video, you’ll see that. So I’ve been trying to get that … in Dallas.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:32:04:11 00:32:29:15 They [Dallas] actually went completely the other way. So now they have a place where you vote on a touchscreen. It then tells you what your vote is in micro print and then puts a barcode, which is what the machine actually reads. So what’s the point? Yeah, just let the West make a decision. You’re wasting people’s time.
Attorney Bob Rust 00:32:29:18 00:32:34:27 …what states have made progress in your judgment?
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:32:35:00 00:32:58:21 Georgia was trying for a while. I was talking with the lieutenant governor’s people, and he was trying to make a push for it. They’re trying to get there. But, the secretary of state is horrible.
Brad Raffensperger …He lives and dies by these machines and won’t let them go. So even a court case that he recently lost that said the machines aren’t valid.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:32:58:24 00:33:20:11 He’s gonna use them anyway, but there is no real penalty for them. So we need the people to actually say, I want to fix this, you know? And people say, where are we going for this election? Well, I talk with some of Trump’s people…. Democrats did not want to know it because they’re on the side of, oops, everything’s perfect, right?
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:33:20:14 00:33:38:09 We’re trying to explain that…you like the whole philosophy behind it. So …what you do if you put a camera over it and then at the precinct or wherever you do your first count before anybody else touches it, you just thumb through the ballots on the camera like you can’t count them that fast at full speed.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:33:38:09 00:34:00:20 But you do now have a record that goes in before it goes in the machine. So the machine gives you a total and you sit down. You can actually count the race that you think is wrong by looking at the video in slow motion. And I actually know that that count is right. If you do that, the validity of the count is now restored before it gets in the machine.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:34:00:22 00:34:10:01 So I don’t care what the machine does. I don’t care if it’s right, because you know what the real right is, but they’ll be right at that point.
Joe Vichot 00:34:10:03 00:34:31:16 Right. But the point that that you could still say, like you just said, take a picture through the machine, still doing a hand count. If we did the hand count, the scanning the machine, fine. But still do the hand count right then and first. If the machine matches, that’s just the back of the machine is the back up to the hand.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:34:31:21 00:34:32:24 The machine should be the opposite.
Joe Vichot 00:34:32:25 00:34:33:23 Yeah, yeah. Neither.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:34:34:00 00:34:57:16 if you put it on video. You don’t even need the machine because everybody in their dog in America could sit down and check that ballot, could check that vote. They see every ballot and every vote. And people who don’t think these things are connected. We got a really good thing down in Texas. I think it was 22 congressional 22.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:34:57:19 00:35:34:01 I sent you …a PowerPoint of it, as well as the images themselves. And one of the candidates was sitting there basically just recording the video of what was going on, getting screen shots at 8:31 p.m. in eight different counties across two separate vendors –so about things [you think] that are not connected. The Democrat and the independent had exactly the same number of votes, not the same percentage, the exact same number of votes.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:35:34:04 00:35:41:22 You know, if you show it on the screen People can actually see that in eight different counties at exactly the same moment in time.
Joe Vichot 00:35:41:25 00:35:43:20 What?
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:35:43:22 00:36:01:25 This was, you know, for a computer programmer that just thinks that what we’re doing math, we’re doing math in the database putting things together because that’s what mine did , right? We get the votes, we do the math, and we put them where we want to put them. So that’s what they were doing. And then after that, of course, it didn’t work.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:36:01:25 00:36:19:13 In fact, the poor independent candidate, you know, where they were playing with this, he sometimes got less votes at the end of the election then during that 8:31PM process where it was just right there in your face, they got caught. Now how can that happen if there is no connection?
Attorney Bob Rust 00:36:19:16 00:36:20:08 Right?
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:36:20:10 00:36:44:23 There’s a Republican race…And three different counties all exactly said so there is a connectivity of some sort. …these people say it’s not connected to the internet. You ever heard that, right?
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:36:44:23 00:37:09:23 Yeah. It’s not connected….to the internet. They don’t know enough about computers to be saying anything. They should just go sit down because the internet is just one transport protocol that you use to actually connect your computers…you can wire them through the house wire.. That’s what we did back in 2000. …you just… didn’t have…the cloud.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:37:09:23 00:37:37:08 …wired House like you can do Bluetooth from the radio in to a thousand different ways to do it. And so but Texas thing kind of shows there is connection and it’s not vendor specific because it’s two separate vendors. So whatever is making the controller has a lot of power over all of those machines.
Joe Vichot 00:37:37:11 00:38:00:21 Then we have some example that Northampton County in the last two elections they have programing error. Again and they didn’t do that and they would have caught it in L&A testing if they had done it correctly, but they actually farmed it out…to the same company that makes the machines to do that update testing
Joe Vichot 00:38:00:21 00:38:21:19 … they were so lazy about it. They messed up with the programing for the questions of the couple about retention judges. All you had to do is say yes or no, and they had the yes and no, backwards. …some people will print it out. They have the touch screen like you were talking about.
Joe Vichot 00:38:21:19 00:38:38:28 It prints out a little piece of paper saying, you know, this is what you did with a barcode, which can be anything. Right? And and most people don’t even look at that. But some did, and they go, wait a minute, I didn’t say yes here. I said no here and yes here. So that’s how they caught it. And it became a mess.
Joe Vichot 00:38:38:28 00:38:58:18 It shut down that whole precinct. And so a lot of people didn’t get to vote, which was disenfranchising. But they fixed it online. But it’s a wait a minute. Yeah. There was no connection, you know. So that’s how we know that there is a connection, at least with the machines that use Northampton County…
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:38:58:21 00:38:59:20 Yeah. Okay.
Attorney Bob Rust 00:38:59:22 00:39:16:17 So let me let me jump in. You said earlier, you said we’d like to hear how the Democrats can say everything is just fine, that you would tell us a little bit about that. I think that’d be helpful because we have to talk to the Democrats. We have to counter the Democrats, too. Okay,..
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:39:16:19 00:39:34:19 Let’s play a game. Okay? ..It’s really easy to do. I’m going to think of a number 1 or 2. You’re going to pick it from 50 bucks.. Money the presidential election. ..Why would you trust me? I’m a machine company, right? I’m a machine company.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:39:34:19 00:39:38:05 So you have to trust me. 1 or 2.
Joe Vichot 00:39:38:07 00:39:40:15 …should I tell you
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:39:40:18 00:39:41:08 Just pick a number.
Joe Vichot 00:39:41:08 00:39:41:16 Two.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:39:41:19 00:40:00:00 …you’re wrong. You’ll make 50 bucks. Let’s do…double or nothing–. But I’m going to write it down. So now you have a paper ballot. Okay… I wrote it down. So I have paper ballot right here with 1 or 2 double or nothing.
Joe Vichot 00:40:00:02 00:40:03:06 But you haven’t showed us the ballot.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:40:03:08 00:40:04:27 …1 or 2 which.
Joe Vichot 00:40:05:01 00:40:08:19 …It’s going to get expensive. I’ll say two.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:40:08:21 00:40:25:19 …you’re welcome. I can’t show you the paper ballot because it’s proprietary….Sorry. It had stuff on it you might identify a voter with it so you can’t see it tonight. Now you owe me money. Now you owe me a 100 bucks. Okay, now I will show you what the Democrats think. …
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:40:25:19 00:40:31:26 Yes. Nothing’s different. Don’t writing it down. You’re not going to see it 1 or 2.
Joe Vichot 00:40:31:28 00:40:34:25 Now you do this one. But I’m I’m running out of money.
Attorney Clint Curtis & Bob Rust 00:40:35:26 00:40:44:19 Rust-One, Curtis-one. You’re right there. Now, are you going to say that last one cheated you? Are you going to say it’s correct?
Attorney Bob Rust 00:40:44:22 00:40:45:16 That’s correct.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:40:45:18 00:41:09:24 Oh that’s correct. Yeah. And that’s where they are. Yeah. The winner always gets it right. Well, I’m good with it. I’m good. Rust-Okay. Yeah. …so they can complain about the elections up to the point where they win. When they win it makes it much more difficult to say. Now wait if the elections are so bad my guy might not have won
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:41:09:24 00:41:31:05…And that’s where the Democrats win and that’s the problem. And there are a lot of them. They’re…holding their tongue because…when Trump is bad… it must be good, right? Because the other team is bad. Therefore I go with the good, I don’t want to judge my own thing.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:41:31:09 00:41:43:28 And that’s where the Democrats…went which is a bad thing. Now, if the Republicans win this one and it looks like..,they are going to win this one, are the Democrats then going to say, oh no, you elections are bad again?
Joe Vichot 00:41:44:06 00:41:45:16 No way.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:41:45:19 00:41:51:21 And are the Republicans going to say no? The elections are now good.
Attorney Bob Rust 00:41:51:23 00:41:59:00 So interesting that you think the Republicans are going to win…
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:42:02:16 00:42:04:22 Correct. I talked to a lot of Democrats, okay.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:42:06:09 00:42:15:07 They don’t like Harris, and they say they’re going to vote Trump. But they would never say that to a pollster. Right. We’re not going to say that out loud…
Attorney Bob Rust 00:42:15:09 00:42:16:21 That is interesting.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:42:16:24 00:42:35:15 So I think that’s why Trump always polls lower than he gets. Because even the Republicans I talk to… a lot of Dems don’t want to say they’re going to vote for Trump because like all the pushback they get…
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:42:35:18 00:42:45:13 And I think that is the issue. And I don’t see a lot of support for Harris. I like Biden, granted he got a little old at, you know, don’t we all.
Attorney Bob Rust 00:42:45:15 00:43:10:26 …Clint if I’m hearing it correctly, as far as Joe and I, as people of Pennsylvania are concerned, somehow, some way, we need to convince our legislature, both, House and Senate and the governor, to do away with electronic voting machines. That is, it is a long game.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:43:30:09 00:43:50:01 You can win because you will have the power if if the Republicans take it, Rust-right, Clint-they suddenly decide that everything is peachy. Then you will have the ability to do that. And that’s easy to do. We don’t have to reinvent the wheel. We can start to look at these other countries that are already went for it, and we know how to get the volunteers.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:43:50:07 00:44:01:18 Well, be semi volunteers, the drafted volunteers, and we know how to get the count and we know how to put it on film. It’s all really simple, but we just have to get people want to do it.
Attorney Bob Rust 00:44:01:24 00:44:22:29 And yet that is your underlying point…It’s both. It’s not a Democrat its not a problem with Republicans…everybody’s at fault because if we win, we’re going to say, hey, everything’s okay. What are you talking about? Why do you want to make a change?
Attorney Bob Rust 00:44:23:02 00:44:47:26 And so it it is a devil if you do devil’s if you don’t, I’m going to switch on you real quick to go to another question that’s outside of Pennsylvania, outside of this country. But you’ve also, gotten into that. You wrote, The Big Hack. Can you tell us just quickly a little something about that?
The-Big-Hack-How-China-Used-a-Tiny-Chip-to-Infiltrate-U.S.-Companies-Bloomberg
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:44:47:28 00:45:20:21 That’s actually, where, that shows a hack from a hardware perspective. Okay. What happened with the with, computers is that they were all over the place. They were, DOD, CIA, everybody had these particular servers that Amazon wanted to buy. The company. So Amazon looked at the schematics and then looked at the inside of the computers and said, there’s an extra thing here.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:45:20:23 00:45:42:16 What’s that cost us? And do we have to have it? They weren’t looking from security. They were looking from cheap. Right. I am not going to put something in? I don’t have to pay for it. So they were bean counters. And so they are investigating and found out that all of these servers that had this little device put in looked like a basically a heat sink, were actually it was a little microcomputer installed by the Chinese.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:45:42:16 00:46:09:18 …it actually was a full computer, had its own networking capability. It would run off the CMOs battery when the computer was even turned off, and it would basically allow full control of that computer …from a programming standpoint to all the way down to any security involved.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:46:09:21 00:46:32:01 And that was back in 2015. Bloomberg actually exposed that. And no one did anything. So to use a machine that could be hacked from companies where we get our supplies overseas, it was just stupid. …
Attorney Bob Rust 00:46:32:03 00:46:51:01 …what are the legal issues that we, we need to deal with here?
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:46:51:03 00:47:12:13 Well, unfortunately, the laws are written by the same people that give you the machines. And so the laws keep you from actually checking anything. And from a legislative standpoint, you could change it if you can get the legislators to do it. But a lot of them are afraid. You know, that if they go against the guy counting the votes, you know what’s going to happen to them.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:47:12:15 00:47:36:06 …, they’re going to be Kari Lake, like Arizona… Curtis- So, especially in close races and you never know what a close race is anymore because back before I wrote this code and it got put into machines, we always used exit polling. We use exit polling in foreign countries to judge whether their elections are accurate.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:47:36:08 00:47:50:10 A year after the machines came out, the exit polls no longer ever matched. So our solution was to quit doing exit polls.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:47:50:13 00:48:10:06…something’s wrong. We need to investigate. we will just quit using them. It’s too confusing. And the results don’t come out the same way we’re told. So we just won’t use. But in other countries, we use them. And … from that aspect, there’s not a lot you can do. …make it proprietary software.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:48:10:09 00:48:30:00 Well, there are a lot of proprietary cases and law where you can still look at what’s going on. You’re just basically do it in-camera … you can sworn to secrecy. So nothing gets out. Here. You can’t even look at it….Impossible. And now ballots are becoming that you aren’t allowed to look at those ballots.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:48:30:00 00:48:51:15 definitely aren’t allowed to hand-count them like Florida …they are trying to go to ballot images… So it’s just crazy from and a judge’s don’t have a lot of room to work with it because they have to follow the law.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:48:51:15 00:49:15:18 …. And basically the laws are written in order to finalize the election, not to determine the validity of it. You have no time to actually get the discovery…done–other than— to actually do any investigation prior to certification. But once it’s certified, it doesn’t matter what you find.
Joe Vichot 00:49:19:09 00:49:39:24 The, just real quick with the exit polling…Look at the Democrats when they come to Venezuela talking about…the exit polling shows that…Maduro did not win…but here we don’t do exit polling anymore….it’s funny how that works….how can we help try to figure this out.
Joe Vichot 00:49:39:26 00:50:03:27 Is a count going back to the precincts, we have to stay at the lowest common denominator. And when you got a precinct that is, predominantly Republican and predominantly Democrat, you should know how that precinct should end up. Maybe…but the ones that get close, those are the ones you can manipulate a little bit more because it’s realistic to believe that some Democrats voted Republican and some Republican voted Democrat.
Joe Vichot 00:50:03:27 00:50:35:22 And that’s why that small percentage is …why you lost by only 1% …my question is if they can reprogram it…do it only like in certain precincts or in certain areas where they know they can get away with…Because…why bother in Tennessee where you know, majority is Republican and it would be obvious that there’s something going on, but they have to do it in areas.
Joe Vichot 00:50:35:22 00:50:56:10 I would think that…that it would be difficult to prove that, based on the statistics. …we have 158 precincts here,…really no point for them to go into…some areas of Allentown and mess with the machines.
Joe Vichot 00:50:56:10 00:51:14:07 They’re not voting Republican. And then same thing in some parts of…the rural part of Pennsylvania. They are voting Republican, but do you think they’re doing it …it’s across the board. Is that just specific areas to specific precincts, and how can they do that?
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:51:14:09 00:51:35:25 If you can think of it, I can make it happen. Yeah. So however they want to do it. …but you go and you move those Republican votes presidential or Senate race. Those votes may be solid red, but if I move ten of them, you’re never going to catch right in the deepest red places there are. I can move ten at a time.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:51:35:28 00:52:01:00 I can also invent ballots. We had, a lady down in Texas….she’s doing a precinct. They have electronic poll books down there…electronic poll books…are connected. They can read everything. They know what’s going on. They can insert voters that don’t actually exist, not even a problem….
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:52:01:00 00:52:26:20 She had like 120 people that came in the whole day. She was watching it. Suddenly her playbook number started going up, went up to 7000, which was actually more than people that could have. But it didn’t matter because it’s already on the polls. So now they have 7000 voters, okay. Which 7000? Which of those are real? And which or not.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:52:27:20 00:52:52:09 You don’t know; you do not know who actually came in. Right. But because poll book says who actually comes in. So they do in Texas because in some of those places they actually write the people’s names down when they come in. So, you know, they then contested it to the secretary of State…this is the people came in and my poll book went to 7000, and they said that was just an error.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:52:52:09 00:53:22:02 Ignore it….So what happens next time? That’s just an error. Ignore it. So if the numbers don’t even have to match and they don’t, then you know what’s a problem. In fact, if you look at most places, you know they don’t match 2016….and this is an interesting thing because I go up there and I go, you think 2020 was a legitimate election?
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:53:22:05 00:53:48:21 …no. Oh, right. In Republican areas. And they say, how about 2016? Well, sure. Well why it’s the same. It’s like when it were 2016, one of the worst elections we had in the entire world. We’ve been hacked. We don’t know what’s going on here. The election 2020 was described as the best election we’ve had in history.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:53:48:23 00:54:03:22 Right. The guy came out a week later the guy who read only one line of code in his whole life comes out and says, that’s the best election result in the whole time. What was the difference?…
Attorney Bob Rust 00:54:03:25 00:54:23:00 Yeah. It reminds me of the the story about how history is written. It’s written by the fact the people have won the victors. Let me just digress. A quick minute. you developed this algorithm? Why did you do it? And what happened with it.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:54:23:03 00:54:42:23 Well, I’m a programmer, so I developed a new program. I was assuming that they didn’t want that. There were some hint of an electronic voting machine coming in, and they wanted evidence that that wouldn’t be a good idea. So I wrote that, and I wrote the paper with and said, okay, and this is why you don’t use it, right?
Attorney Bob Rust 00:54:43:00 00:54:43:24 Okay.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:54:43:27 00:55:05:19 Or you go to a click here and here and you can make anybody you want flip. So Democrats winning and you want the Republican to win. I think it’s the top left corner, the bottom left corner on a set. And it’ll flip. Want the Republican to win on top right corner about. It’ll flip right and everything flips. So it flips the database flips…
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:55:05:21 00:55:38:04 So there’s nothing you can look at in there. you can’t say it flipped. Now you can’t say it flipped see its perfect no matter which way it comes out. It’s it….so I gave it to them… and so I wrote up so and the head of the company said no this isn’t. And as a Republican that requested this, by the way, back in 2000, but, gave it to the head of the company and gave it to her…we plan on using it.—what happened after that I do not know because I do not roll things out—–
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:55:38:04 00:56:01:21 So after that, I don’t know, because I don’t roll things out I am a programmer So a lot of people say, well, well, was it used in the Diebold machines. Well, Diebold seemed to have some problem and they seem to be using a very identical programming systems that I wrote in my prototype. But can I say they used that, you know, how do you know that?
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:56:01:23 00:56:24:24 Because you don’t know; rolls it out programmers are never going to know …where they roll it out. In fact, they were still using the Gems database, which was in a production system. We’re going to use a real database, correct. Like SQL Server or Oracle, something like that. I wrote it as a prototype, so I wrote it to talk to an MDB file, which is essentially, Microsoft Access.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:56:24:27 00:56:49:10 That little simple program you get like throw in there. Ten years later, they were still using an access database called Gem until…people…said, why are you still using that? why are you still using access? the thing this guy said he wrote 20 years ago and you’re still using it today. So I’m not sure if they went to MySQL… wouldn’t be a big step.
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:56:49:10 00:56:57:12 But why would you have an access database in any production system that you have now sold to the government?
Attorney Bob Rust 00:57:10:20 00:57:29:10 …You wrote that system because you wanted to demonstrate why not to use the machines; that once it got into the hands of other folks…they started to use it for their own purposes. Democrat, Republican…
Attorney Clint Curtis 00:57:29:12 00:57:47:20 …I told the Democrats right away that…this Republican who was a congressman had actually requested this program. You would think the response would be, that’s terrible. We need to do an investigation…the first thing out of each mouth, and she goes, why didn’t we think of that first?
Attorney Bob Rust 00:57:47:23 00:58:03:26 … I’ll give you a shot to ask, or say whatever you’d like… to Clint, and, and then I will close it up.
Joe Vichot 00:58:03:28 00:58:28:17 …we’re definitely in a tough spot right now. Nothing’s going to …change before this election. And and this is …the most historical election ever. So all I can ask is, what we’re going to do is what Donald Trump is trying to get out is…swamp the vote…too big,…to rig comments like that.
Joe Vichot 00:58:28:19 00:58:52:20 …the very people think he’s already going to win it. You have to have such an overwhelming number in order for us… to maybe think that they are not going to get away with it. That’s the only way I think we’re going to get around that this year until we get people in, like you’re talking about to change the entire system.
Joe Vichot 00:58:52:23 00:59:11:14 …every day I need people to be door knocking every day. …We still need to make sure people know who they want to vote for…
Joe Vichot 00:59:11:14 00:59:29:11 So it’s get out the vote and protect the vote. Obviously, the protected vote is the part that we’re really worried about, but if the people don’t get out the vote. It doesn’t really matter. So I’m doing both and I have to sign off because that’s what I’m going to go do right now. And the Hispanic community in Allentown. So I appreciate this podcast.
Joe Vichot 00:59:29:11 00:59:35:17 I appreciate meeting you Clint and and and Bob, thanks again for all you do.
Attorney Bob Rust 00:59:35:19 00:59:57:18 Okay. Well, I understand why you have to leave, but listen, thank you very much. I’d like to know if if you’re up at some of the things you’ve said with our organization here, granted, we’re local, we’re small, but we want to become a part of the solution. And I can envision some things I’d like to follow up with you on later.
Attorney Bob Rust 00:59:57:18 01:00:21:19 I think, in terms of how we can pursue this legally as well as work legislatively and we’ve got a number of your video, which we certainly could talk about making available to Joe and others, other sources. But I trust that we could continue to follow up on our dialog with you. Well, listen, you know, you let me commend you for all that you’ve done, your persistence.
Attorney Bob Rust 01:00:21:19 01:00:39:15 Obviously, you’re brilliant. So much in your field. You’ve just done a great job… But that ball has been taken and used in ways that you didn’t expect it to be. But that’s what it is. And with that, I want to commend…to the rest of the people that listen to this. Pay attention what’s been said.
Attorney Bob Rust 01:00:39:15 01:00:53:19 Help us make the change to get rid of these electronic machines, as our speaker tried to do many years ago. So with that, I will say, well, thanks to everyone and we will close this, this interview.
historical cartoon 01:00:53:21 01:01:02:17
historical cartoon 01:01:02:20 01:01:20:06
historical cartoon 01:01:20:08 01:01:25:13
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More transcript excerpts to follow
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Appendix
Matched Totals
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a_race_on_100_ballots_tabulated_in_2m30s_with_full_transparency_for_the_public! (.mp4)
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The-Big-Hack-How-China-Used-a-Tiny-Chip-to-Infiltrate-U.S.-Companies-Bloomberg
What-do-German-election-volunteers-do-DW-09_19_2017
China-hacks-the-US-military-and-government-—-the-Feds-blame-Microsoft-Computerworld
Lindell-Curtis-2022-Electronic-Voting-Machines-2
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Clint Curtis Interview Transcript
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